Interview between Joan Stephens and Kathleen Lammas (Aunty Kath), September 1999.

JS: Minnie wasn't it? Minnie Lammas.

AK: Minnie.

JS: Yes.

AK: Yes.

JS: But I couldn't remember what.

AK: And your grandad was George.

JS: George. When I tried to look up the records for a George Lammas I found loads of George Lammases and there were something like 7 Lammas families that lived on Sidemoor. There were about 7 families of Lammas.

AK: Oh yes. There were a lot of Lammases, yes.

JS: Yes. So I couldn't trace it, so I don't know, do you know if he has a second name? 

AK: No I don't know all these families. I believe though that his mother was like a scotch that Jock got his nickname...

JS: [interrupts] Was it?

AK: ...I think his grandmother was a scotch woman, Jock...

JS: [interrupts] I haven't been able to...

AK: ...I can't think what his grandad's name was.

00:01:00

JS: I must go and see Uncle Eric too, sometime. I was very upset when Aunty Edna died because...

AK: [Interrupts] She was with me at five o-clock.

JS: Yeah, so I gather.

AK: She left me at five o-clock.

JS: You see now, I know she knew my mother very well and I thought she would be able to tell me things about my mother you see and of course I've lost all that now, so er...

AK: Yeah she left me five past five and I think she had it just after, well she did because Eric said he was making her a cup of tea and she was cutting the lawn and she fell. Couldn't believe it...

JS: [Interrupts] No...

AK: ...she was alright when she left me.

JS: Yes I know, well that's how it goes, isn't it?

AK: Yes

JS: Yes [pause] because I couldn't even...

AK: [Interrupts] I just, I was [indistinct] she couldn't follow as [indistinct] I'd had the heart attack cause I had to have two nurses in the daytime, they never left me, and one at night. Two was with me because I kept me at home...

00:02:05

JS: Oh right

AK: ...and I had two nurses here and one at night.

[Tape Noise]

JS: Where. Do you remember their address in Sidemoor? Where they lived?

AK: Who? Eric's?

JS: No, not Eric's, umm, my grandfather before they moved to...

AK: [Interrupts] Oh it was five Crab Tree Lane.

JS: Yeah I remember that one but they lived in a cottage [1 second gap in recording] remember that.

AK: Back somewhere Back Lane, Church Lane it was somewhere.

JS: Church Lane was it?

AK: Yes, we used to call it Back Lane.

JS: Back Lane

AK: But, er, I couldn't tell you the number there, but that's where they come from. We always calls it Back Lane but I think it was Church Lane. It was a little, oh it's all been built up now...

JS: [Interrupts] I know it's gone, yeah.

AK: ...but that's where it was.

JS: But if I go...

AK: [Interrupts] Do you know where Evelyn lives?

JS: Yes.

AK: Well all those were little cottages and it was somewhere round that corner there.

00:03:00

JS: Yes I remember, I remember my grandmother showing me...

AK: [Interrupts] Yes

JS: ...When I was little, you know, but I didn't ever know the actual address and if I want to go back through the records to see, you know, where they lived, to see who was born to who I need to know the address.

AK: Eric would know it or Frank because...

JS: [Interrupts] Would they?

AK: I should say they would because they weren't born into Crab Tree Lane were they?

JS: No, I wouldn't have thought so.

AK: Grab a spoon. I always, Jock always said Back Lane.

JS: Yeah, OK.

AK: They always called it Back Lane.

JS: Yes, I need to look that up. Isn't that interesting that your family were linked with the Lammases like that?

AK: Yes well it. Cause they are some, they are of some relation I think they've actually come the other side, the other relations cause they always used to... There was my Uncle Jabe, he always used to... That grandad always used to say that he had dollars. That was my uncle, my mother's brother.

JS: Ahh.

AK: Your grandad used to say [?] Ev er dollar [?] well [indistinct] that was his nickname.

JS: Wow.

AK: His nickname. But his name was Jabez... was Ballard because he was born out of marriage.

JS: Oh right.

AK: But always calls him [?] Ev er dollar [?].

JS: Gosh.

AK: And Phyllis used to call our mother Aunty Beth I think it was cause I think they were sort of, well say forty second cousins see. You know what I mean.

JS: Yeah.

AK: I think it came from the actual, from the actual family only it was a break off. He had so many children it became the one side of the family. But they never traced the other half, they only traced their side, you see.

JS: Yes, well that's... I would be interested if you could let me have a copy of that sometime. Urm.

AK: I'll have to have a good search and see if I can find it out.

JS: Yeah because I could then perhaps make links you know through that to the other side of the family. It would be interesting.

AK: I have got it somewhere tucked away.

JS: Because I'm putting all this on the computer, you see. It's my daughter who's really interested because she was, she didn't. I was an only child and my husband was an only child so she didn't have any uncles and aunties and cousins like you know, and so she's just fascinated to know the history of the family. So I've been trying to do this for her benefit really.

AK: I'll have a look through one days next week and see if I can... I've got it, I've got a rough copy off because I sent it to Australia.

JS: Yes, right.

AK: And Keith's got the one that was framed, where the name comes from. There was a coat of arms with three lambs lying down. He's traced that tree back.

JS: Has he?

AK: Yes he's got it framed.

JS: I'll have to have his address off you so that I can get in touch with him.

AK: I think it's originated in Scotland. I'm not sure.

JS: I'm pretty sure it goes back to Scotland.

AK: This is the Lammas [indistinct] in Scotland.

JS: That's right. It goes back to Scotland but beyond that I think it goes back to France.

AK: Yes. But Keith's got it. How he's got it I don't know but he's it framed anyway, on the wall.

JS: Right. I'll write down Keith's address if you'll give it to me and then I can maybe get in touch with him.

AK: But I'll see if I can err... If I can find that one out because it could be just what you're looking for.

JS: Yes it could. It just might make the link. [Pause] What is Keith's address?

AK: Forty three Lodgemere Drive.

JS: Forty three Lodge?

AK: Forty three Lodgemere Drive, Sidemoor, Bromsgrove.

JS: Do you have a post code? Do you know the post code? Oh, sorry, am I making you get up again?

AK: I couldn't tell you now. I haven't got it. I never puts it on.

JS: What about a phone number? [pause] Do you know a phone number?

AK: It's upstairs somewhere.

JS: Oh no, don't go upstairs for it.

AK: I think it's on his bank book upstairs.

JS: No don't go upstairs. Don't go up specially now. Um, what I'll do is I'll leave you my address then maybe you could write it down and post it or something.

AK: I'll see if I can find it. I've got it somewhere I know as it might be useful for you, might be what you...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes.

AK: ...give you the right start.

JS: Well then I might be able to give Keith some information that he hadn't got you see.

AK: I'll have a look and see if it is in this one tin.

JS: Oh, are you sure that is ok. I don't want you to go overdoing it.

[tin opens]

AK: I think it's in here, what's his number now.

JS: I know the feeling.

AK: B sixty one eight Q L.

JS: B sixty one eight Q L. Thank you. Have you got a phone number?

AK: Oh, eight seven six seven eight two. Oh wait a minute, that my phone here [laughs].

JS: Oh, wait a minute that's your number isn't it?

AK: That's mine. Eight seven one eight three oh [coughs].

JS: Eight seven one eight three oh. I phoned you one or two times and it turned out I had written your number down I had four on the end instead of two and I kept getting somebody else.

AK: Yes, I have a job to hear on the phone.

JS: Yes, but anyway I got the number wrong so I looked it up in the book and found I was, I had it, I had four on the end instead of two [coughs].

AK: It might be in here, I'm not sure. If it isn't in here I'll have to look in the others. Too much [loud clink] too many bits by me.

JS: Yes, I'm trying to sort my life out.

AK: I think, ur, to tell you the truth I think this is, ur... [rustling papers] ...mother's and dad's funeral.

JS: Oh, your parents.

AK: Yes. [5 seconds of rustling paper] see if it's in here.

JS: I expect you've tucked it away somewhere safely. I expect you've put it in a safe place.

AK: Oh, it's in a safe place. That's my mother's and dad's golden wedding.

JS: Oh, let me have a look.

AK: Is that all about the nailing? [8 seconds rustling paper with an indistinct comment] I haven't got it. Not in here anyway.

JS: Never mind. [pause] This is fascinating.

AK: That is?

JS: Yes. [6 second pause] I have a job to read it. I have to hold it up. [laughs].

AK: [laughs] [pause] I've got that somewhere, I'll have to have a good look through. [pause] But you see I only really dig holes [?] and throw a lot of things away. I think it's always such a clear out.

JS: Yeah I know.

AK: [sighs] I had it in my hand not too long ago when I was sorting something else out [10 second pause, cup rattles].

JS: Twenty thousand nails for ten and sixpence.

AK: Yes. Those were the good old days.

JS: Yes.

[5 second pause]

AK: [indistinct]

JS: Not really no.

[5 second pause]

AK: I'll really have to go through this and see if I can find it. [5 second pause] [indistinct] [5 second pause].

JS: I find this really fascinating, I'm really glad that you went and...

AK: [Interrupts] Pardon?

JS: I said this is fascinating isn't it?

AK: It is fascinating. That was my mother's golden wedding. The four generations. They didn't often get to four generations in them days.

JS: No, they didn't did they. So that, that was...

AK: [Interrupts] I think...

JS: [Interrupts] ...That was your...

AK: [Interrupts] ...There's only, only the baby left on that photo alive. The grandchild.

JS: That, is that your brother then?

AK: Brother?

JS: Was that your brother? Or your?

AK: Yes, yes.

JS: That was your brother.

AK: [Indistinct]

JS: So where were you then?

AK: That's the daughter, that's the [indistinct], that's the only two that I [indistinct]. Wait a bit, no that's, those two are the only, that's the mum, the dad and his child.

JS: Yes.

AK: That's my brother.

JS: That's your brother.

AK: Yes. But these others are all dead [indistinct] Sheila were alive.

JS: Yes.

AK: And those.

JS: Oh dear isn't that fascinating.

AK: That's our wedding photo, I don't know whether you saw it.

JS: Oh, I remember Loraine being your bridesmaid.

AK: [Indistinct] then.

JS: That's right, she wasn't very old was she?

AK: Two.

JS: She had quite a sad life in the end.

AK: Yeah.

JS: Well I'm blowed. [5 second pause] Your mother?

AK: My mother's dead.

JS: Your mother's...

AK: [Interrupts] That's my sister.

JS: That's your sister there, is it?

AK: Yes, that was Margaret.

JS: So how many were in your family then?

AK: Nine.

JS: Nine.

AK: I was the youngest of nine.

JS: Gosh. You look lovely there. Do you remember that day?

AK: [laughs] You never forget your wedding day, I don't think.

JS: No.

AK: I could always remember George's. They got married two weeks before us and um...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes.

AK: ...Loraine was bridesmaid to me...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes.

AK: ...and we were sat in the church at George's and all of a sudden she slipped off her seat, she was sat with me and Olive, she said "I'm bridesmaid and I'm off"...

JS: [Laughs]

AK: ... of course she was bridesmaid to me and they were getting married, she said "I'm bridesmaid and I'm off" she was going down, she wanted to go down [laughs].

JS: Oh, lovely.

AK: [laughs] Oh dear.

JS: Oh dear.

AK: Here mother had to grab her [laughs].

JS: Yes. [5 second pause] I think it's quite interesting. Looking at my grandmother there.

AK: Yes.

JS: She's got the same jaw line as that lady there, your sister...

AK: [Interrupts] That's my sister.

JS: ...hasn't she? And you said...

AK: [Interrupts] That's Eric's mother.

JS: That's Eric's mother?

AK: Yes.

JS: Yes.

AK: Preston.

JS: Right, now I get the connection, of course.

AK: Yes.

JS: Yes.

AK: Eric was up last week. When did he come up? I reckon before. I think it was two weeks today Eric came up.

JS: Cause he hadn't been well had he?

AK: No, nor she isn't is she?

JS: No, I don't think she is now. She carries a lot of weight.

AK: Yes she does.

JS: Well I think that's interesting, look at that jaw line, exactly the same.

AK: Yes.

JS: So I guess that's the Lammas link or something, isn't it?

AK: Yes.

JS: Do you remember...

AK: [Interrupts] Sharmi Dean that was.

JS: What's that?

AK: Yes Sharmi Dean.

JS: I remember her.

AK: And that's your Aunty Edna. And that was Jock's cousin. She's err...

JS: So that's Uncle Eric's wife is it?

AK: Er Len's wife.

JS: Len's wife, sorry, Len's wife.

AK: Yes, Len's wife, yes.

JS: Yes.

AK: And that's her cousin. She was a Banner, Ethel Banner.

JS: Yes.

AK: She married our [?]Celice's husband's brother, she did, Ethel did, but he's dead. But there she was only two [indistinct]. Yes, I shall always remember. She slipped off the pew, she said "I'm bridesmaid and I'm off".

JS: Yes.

AK: She wanted to go down behind George [laughs].

JS: Oh how lovely. [5 second pause] Trying to um, I'm trying to write down these names.

AK: Whose names?

JS: Mira Lammas.

AK: Mira Lammas, yes.

JS: That was your, wait a minute.

AK: That was my mother's maiden name. Her dad was...

JS: [Interrupts] Was Mira Lammas your mother?

AK: Mira Lammas was my mother.

JS: Yes, that's what I thought. Yes. Got to get right up here [laughs]

AK: Yes. And her dad's name was Jabez Lammas.

JS: Yes, that's what I was writing down. [5 second pause] That's an unusual name isn't it, Jabez?

AK: Well, there's two or three in our family named that.

JS: Is there? My grandson's name is Jay, er is Zak, Zacchariah, Zak [laughs].

[5 second pause]

AK: Had that some years.

JS: Yeah.

[5 second pause]

AK: [indistinct] Hard [indistinct] to work, for nothing. 

JS: Yes, and nine children to feed as well.

AK: And they didn't have family allowance. [5 second pause] [indistinct] born today.

JS: Interesting. So, is that, your sister marr, your sister is, is got, is now a Waldron, is that your sister?

AK: Yes, that's the one in Canada.

JS: And of course, Aunty Olive married a Waldron. Were they related?

AK: No, I don't think so.

JS: Gosh.

AK: No, these Waldrons was from urm, ah, Vigo, Vigo farm. No, they were no relation.

JS: Some in Canada, isn't that amazing.

AK: Yes, I wasn't married when that was...

JS: No?

AK: I was the only one at home.

JS: Gosh.

AK: I wasn't married when my mother died.

JS: You weren't very old when your mother died then.

AK: What was I? [indistinct] about twenty seven I think.

JS: Were you? So you married quite late.

AK: My mother was sixty nine when she died. She was 18 when she got married. She was married fifty one years.

JS: Now here's Margaret Collins, now is that Eric's...

AK: Eric's er, That was Eric's er...

JS: [Interrupts] Family.

AK: Yes, that was Eric's er, mother and dad.

JS: [Indistinct] worked for the Austin Aircraft Works.

AK: [Indistict] worked for the Austin [indistinct] yeah. We got married. Urm, mother died in the February. We got married in the, er, July.

JS: Gosh.

AK: She'd been dead three or four months when we got married.

JS: Married in, in the, you were in the war then, you were married.

AK: Yes, we got married during the war. Yes she died er, February the 19th, I think it was, mother died. Nineteen forty.

JS: Irons was one of you sisters then.

AK: Hmm?

JS: Mrs Irons was one of your sisters.

AK: Who?

JS: Mrs. Irons in the photograph is your, is she...

AK: [Interrupts] That's the sister.

JS: [Interrupts] She's your sister.

AK: Umm.

JS: Or.

AK: [Sighs] Wait a bit now. No, our Lena married this, er, she's Mrs. Irons. That's my niece.

JS: That's your niece.

AK: And that's her husband.

JS: That's her husband.

AK: And that's her baby.

JS: That's her baby.

AK: That's the forth generation. One, two, three, four.

JS: One, two, three, four, right.

AK: Yes, see that's husband and wife and the baby...

JS: Right.

AK: ... and that's the granny and grandad and the great grandad.

JS: Ahh, right.

AK: My mother was ever so little.

JS: Wow.

AK: She wasn't very tall.

JS: Of course she's sat down there so it's difficult to tell, isn't it.

AK: Yes.

JS: Perhaps that's why I'm little see, comes from the Lammas side of the family. [laughs] I just think this is so fascinating.

AK: Yes, I've kept that, that's nearly sixty years old. That's fifty nine years old, that is.

JS: Gosh.

AK: Nineteen forty.

JS: Wow.

AK: It'll soon be two thousand, won't it.

JS: You ought to get it copied or something before it disintergrates. Get Keith to copy it.

AK: I've even got the burial fees here, you'll be suprised how, how it's gone up. I've got them here somewhere, how much it cost.

JS: Oh wow.

AK: I sent it somebody and they had the shock of their life. Now you see, you want to take that off to urm, Giles and let him see how much it's gone up.

JS: Yeah.

AK: Them is all birth certificates I think. I got it somewhere around here.

JS: That is wonderful. How [?]. Is that great how you've kept that all these years.

AK: I'll just fetch my glasses and I shall see. I can't see without them.

JS: I can't see without mine [laughs].

AK: I've had the cataract done.

JS: Have you?

AK: Yeah. I've got it [sighs]. The cemetery. You just look at that. Internment fee sixteen shillings. Just, just check that over.

JS: Good lord. Internment fee sixteen shillings.

AK: Oh, this is Giles, um one pound seventeen. I've forgot, I don't know what that's for, Giles.

JS: Oh that's this. That's the total.

AK: That's the receipt off that.

JS: Yes.

AK: That's the receipt off that.

JS: Gosh.

AK: They laughed at me keeping these. I said "well"...

JS: [Interrupts] Oh no, I think it's wonderful.

AK: That's the stone, no, that's Giles. That is what, now look at that. A polished coffin, Nickel plates, all that and it come to thirteen pound fifteen. Now I paid him a thousand three hundred...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes and that's nineteen forty.

AK: ...now that's seventeen pound. I kept these just for curiosity. Oh that's Dean. That's the stone. Eighteen pound, seventeen and six and they give us seven and six back.

JS: I bet the stamps are worth a mint.

AK: Yes, Yeah.

JS: Let alone anything else.

AK: The stone was seventeen pound and I paid three hundred for my Jock. Now what's this?

JS: The whole funeral, the whole cost of the whole funeral, one pound seventeen. That's in nineteen forty.

AK: Yes, and we had how many coaches on there? There's three I think.

JS: Three mourning coaches, yes.

AK: Yes, they wrote a hearse and three mourning coaches, that was four.

JS: Wow.

AK: Now that was for the grave, the, to pay for the grave, three pound eighty. And I had to pay twenty five pound for a dear little bit like that.

JS: What a difference.

AK: I kept these just for curiosity.

JS: Wow, you mustn't lose those.

AK: But er, I don't know what that is.

JS: Get Keith to make copies of them.

AK: They told me to have put in [indistinct]. A good many says you want to put that in the advertiser.

JS: Yes, you should.

AK: That's old Mr. Dean, eighteen pounds, the stone, the er, the stone on my mother's grave.

JS: Wow.

AK: And er, what I paid the other one was three hundred.

JS: Two and a half dozen leaded letters...

AK: Yes.

JS: ...at five shillings a dozen.

AK: Yes.

JS: Isn't that lovely.

AK: Have you seen it was a shilling on something for the bearers or something on the one? And that one.

JS: Four bearers, no it's not on that one.

AK: Burial fee, er...

JS: One eighteen. One pound eighteen.

AK: Yes. It was only a shilling on something. I know I read.

JS: I wonder where it was written.

AK: You can't believe it, can you?

JS: No. No relationship to today. Perhaps it's on here look.

AK: [Laughs]

JS: The wheel[?] bear one pound six, one shilling for the sexton. Wow.

AK: And it was for digging the grave it wasn't much, was it?

JS: Sexton's fee two and six.

AK: Yes. Look at that. Minister's fee six shillings and I paid them fifteen pound.

JS: Yes, fifteen pound.

AK: Fifteen pound I paid.

JS: Gosh. Isn't that amazing?

AK: [Indistinct] can't belive it.

JS: No. Nineteen forty.

AK: I know. I show it them they say well, they says you ought to have that put in the advertiser, oh, how much it's gone up in the length of time.

JS: [laughs] Oh those are precious. I'll take my jacket off a minute, it's a bit warm.

AK: Why, I'll have to go through it again. I shall sort that. I shall find that if I. It might not be in this one but I've got so many things tucked away.

JS: So what was your, what was your mother's name? What was...

AK: [Interrupts] What was my mother's name?

JS: No, wait a minute, Mira Lammas's parents?

AK: Mira, M-I-R-A.

JS: Yeah, got that but what. That's right. What, what was her mother's name? Do you know? Cause it doesn't say in the paper, does it? It just says his name.

AK: Oh, I don't know what Granny Lammas's name was [pause] Sarah, I think. i wouldn't like to say for sure but I think it is.

JS: I'll put "Query Sarah".

AK: Yes.

JS: Then if I, if I...

AK: Her dad's name, her dad's name was Jabez.

JS: Yeah got that. [Pause] Wow. [Pause] Once I start doing this I get so involved with it. It's so fascinating. Isn't that wonderful. I never made the connection with Eric Collins and, and you. I didn't realise that.

AK: Well he's, he's Margaret's son. It was a fortnight ago they came up.

JS: Do you remember anything about my mother, do you remember my mother at all.

AK: Oh yes. I used to go and see her when she was in hospital.

JS: Yes.

AK: I used to go to, to Fairfield, er, on the bus to Fairfield then I had to walk up to the sanitorium.

JS: Yes.

AK: It was a long walk up there.

JS: I remember walking up there once with my father.

AK: Yes.

JS: I remember that.

AK: It was a long walk up there.

JS: Yes.

AK: Yes I used to...

JS: [Interrupts] Is that sanitorium still there or...?

AK: [Interrupts] Pardon?

JS: Is the sanitorium still there?

AK: I don't know, I've no idea.

JS: I shall have to...

AK: [Interrupts] I know it was a long way up that drive.

JS: Yes.

AK: It was a long way up there when we got off the bus. It dropped you by the gates you know.

JS: Yes.

AK: And then it give you a long walk up there.

JS: I remember. Gosh.

AK: You all slept here the night Evelyn got married. You and Doll slept here the night...

JS: [Interrupts] Really?

AK: Evelyn got married.

JS: Good Lord.

AK: Yes.

JS: I've got, I don't, I don't know whether I remember the wedding but I've got a photograph of that wedding.

AK: Len got married on the Saturday. Of course the August holiday was the beginning of August then.

JS: Yes.

AK: And, er, Len got married on the Saturday and Evelyn got married on the Monday.

JS: Oh, right.

AK: Just the weekend in between, a couple of days in between.

JS: I remember that. It's one of the few photographs that I've got of my mother is at that wedding.

AK: Yeah. Your dad was in the war at the time.

JS: That's right, yes.

AK: My memory's losing, I loses a lot of facts, but I can remember quite a lot but I mean I do forget some of the things.

JS: Yes. If you remember anything after I've gone, write it down for me. [5 second pause] [indistict] Just er.

AK: I've got it somewhere I know. I put them in so many different things you know with er, I shall have to have another look. I know I'm due for a turn out, I know that.

JS: Well I'm trying to turn out things at the moment. I don't know about you. I think I'm sixty one. I'd better sort things out. If anything happens to me poor Helen won't know where to, what to do.

AK: [Indistinct] trying to throw things out.

JS: Don't throw things like that out though.

AK: I won't, no. I told Keith I shall want a skip when, if anything happens to me to clear this shed out.

JS: [Laughs].

AK: He said "I shan't, I shall leave it" [laughs].

JS: Aww. Oh dear.

AK: Oh I've got a heck of a lot of clothes as well, I've got a heck of a lot, cause I don't wear them. I don't go out and I don't wear them...

JS [interrupts] No.

AK: ...I'll give them to the rummage sales I'll get rid of them.

JS: Very wise.

AK: I don't wear them [indistinct].

JS: Were you and Uncle Jock?

AK: Pardon?

JS: Were you and Uncle Jock married, you weren't the last to be married? You were married, were you married after my parents of before? After.

AK: After.

JS: After, yeah. [Pause] Because they were married in thirty two.

AK: We got married just after Phyllis. Phyllis got married twelve month before us then George got married two weeks before us. But Phyllis was good twelve month before us. I think she got married thirty nine. We got married forty. George got married on the thirteenth July and we got married on the twenty seventh. The Banns was read out together and eveybody said it was a double wedding but it wasn't.

JS: Oh right.

AK: Everybody was expecting a double wedding but it wasn't.

JS: No. [5 second pause] My parents were married in nineteen thirty two. [Indistinct].

AK: And then Len got married after us in, and, I think Len, Len got married in the war. I think he was in the army when he got married, I'm not sure...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes he was because he had a uniform on. I've got the photograph with him in uniform.

AK: Yes. Frank got married... [pause] Frank's been married is it fifty three years?

JS: Must be because I, were you at their golden wedding?

AK: Yes.

JS: Yes, that's right, that's the last time I saw you.

AK: Yes.

JS: Yes.

AK: Yes. It's three years...

JS: [Interrupts] Well, my daughter came with me then but she wasn't well and she went up to lie on the bed a Sue's house because she had a terrible headache. So I don't expect you saw her.

AK: No, I didn't see her, no. I was expecting Frank today but he hasn't been. He comes every so often.

JS: He was still working the last time I saw him.

AK: I told him the last time I saw him he knocked off. He'll be eighty two you know.

JS: I know.

AK: He's eighty two in...

JS: Amazing.

AK: I tell you what, every time he comes [gap].

JS: I bet he takes no notice.

AK: He don't take a bit of notice.

JS: No [laughs].

AK: But he, I thought the last time he came he really looked tired.

JS: Did he?

AK: He did look tired and I said to Frank, I said... of course he turns round and says "What's I got to stop at home for love?" you know what I mean?

JS: [Laughs]

AK: But I did, I thought he looked really, really done in, he looked really tired when he came. It would be about, I would say it would be about a month now. He comes about a month or six weeks. I should say it is a month since he came the last time.

JS: Yes, I must go and see him.

AK: I though how tired he looked. He really did look tired out.

JS: Yes.

AK: I told him, I said "It's time you knocked off and stopped at home". He said "Why do you need to nag me, I fully understand all that".

JS: [Laughs].

AK: But he's bound to feel tired isn't he, at eighty two [indistinct].

JS: [interrupts] I'm just amazed he still does it at eighty two. I'm amazed he still does it.

AK: Well I, I thought he was beginning to break when I saw him. I thought he was wasn't like he used to be. Because he goes up to Gladys's on, on a Sunday and does her garden, he comes in, he always comes in plants me some potatoes and puts me beans in down the bottom.

JS: Does he? That's amazing.

AK: [Indistinct] I try to a bit of the gardening. I have cut the beans off waiting for them to drive down to take the beans. But if I start on anything Mr Shepard next door sees me taking the beans down he comes and gets, he climbs over the fence and comes and helps me.

JS: Ah.

AK: I've got two good neighbours.

JS: That makes a difference.

AK: They've both got keys to get in. They ain't got to knock, they can just open [indistinct] they've got keys. Well Val's got them to the back as well as the front but Karen's only got them to the front.

JS: Hmm.

AK: But, er, Val's got them back and front. [5 second pause] [indistinct] and that does the shopping they doesn't get the pension and all that [indistinct] does that. She always comes in to see if I wants anything.

JS: Who's that? Your neighbour?

AK: Next door.

JS: Oh that's very good.

AK: I've only got. If I wants anything I've only got to knock either side of the wall and they come in to see what I want. Then they come night and morning, the home help comes night and morning.

JS: Does it? How often do you see Keith? Does he...

AK: [Interrupts] Hmm?

JS: How often do you see Keith? How often does Keith come?

AK: Oh, he comes two or three times in the week.

JS: That's nice.

AK: Yes. If they don't come they phone.

JS: Good.

AK: [Indistinct] Of course some weekends he has to work. I wondered, I thought he might have had to work this weekend. He didn't. He came here [indistinct]. Cause up till they went away he was working. See, he works at the hospital, and umm, they have to do the operating theatre at weekends.

JS: Ahh.

AK: If they've got to do the operating, do anything in the operating theatres, he has to work seven days because they can only do it weekends, you see.

JS: What does he actually do?

AK: Well, he's like, he's over the maintainance.

JS: Oh, right.

AK: He don't do a lot himself but he's got to be...

JS: [Interrupts] He's in charge, yes.

AK: ...[indistinct] [pause] that's if there's jobs they can't do in the week...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes.

AK: ...[indistinct] at weekends.

JS: And those are his two children there.

AK: Those are his, yes those are his, that's Katy and Mark there. Theres ten years between them.

JS: Is there?

AK: Katy's twenty two and Mark will be thirty two in December.

JS: Then what. He's nearer my son's age.

AK: There's such a difference between two children you'd laugh. Oh Katy's calmed down to what she was.

JS: Hmm.

AK: But Mark was always very, very gently. He is now.

JS: Yes.

AK: He's ever so gentle, Mark is. Katy used to be, oh, "I'll do it" and she'd take things off you, oh and she could do it.

JS: Hmm.

AK: She was very impetuous and everything. Always rushing into things.

JS: Yes.

AK: Where mark would hang back, Katy rushed in.

JS: Is she married?

AK: Hmm?

JS: Is Katy married?

AK: No, No. She was twenty two in March. Mark will be thirty two in December...

JS: [Interrupts] And what's...

AK: ...December the fourth, I get's mixed up, but i think it's December the fourth. I can remember Katy's. Katy's is the first of March, but I'm never sure if Mark's is the seventh or the fourth. I always ask "When's our Mark's birthday?".

JS: That's interesting. My son was born in March.

AK: Hmm?

JS: My son was born in March.

AK: Yes.

JS: March the third.

AK: Well, Keith's is in March as well, Keith, er March, Keith's is March the twentieth.

JS: My son's very gentle. Maybe it was something to do with when they were born.

AK: Yes, yes. Erm, our Mark's very gentle, very gentle. I've never heard him raise his voice.

JS: No.

AK: He's over six foot.

JS: Yes so's my son, yes.

AK: Yes. He's ever such a big chap.

JS: And my son's called Martin.

AK: Yes.

JS: That's funny isn't, very similar.

AK: Yes, he's ever such a big chap, and he's broad with it as well you know.

JS: Hmm.

AK: He works for himself. He's got his own business, but er.

JS: What does he do?

AK: He's a carpenter. He er, he was apprenticed 'til he was twenty one, with his dad.

JS: Hmm

AK: And then he went to college until he was twenty six. He's got three letters after his name, what they are I couldn't tell you, but he's got three after his, he can take any job in building, even a, he's in what they call a managerial er...

JS: [Interrupts] Level.

AK: ...course that he took...

JS: [Interrupts] That's very interesting because...

AK: [Indistinct] he works for himself.

JS: My son in law is a carpenter, Helen's husband.

AK: Yes.

JS: And he's also a carpenter. His name is Mark.

AK: I couldn't tell you what, he's got three letters I know. And he was twenty seven when he erm, he, he took his finals.

JS: Hmm.

AK: I know I was at their house but I don't know whether I'd got plurasy or I'd got the shingles. I know I was at their house in bed when he come back and he says "Well I've passed, I've passed it all". He said "I've passed the lot".

JS: Good.

Ak: And er...

JS: [Interrupts] And he's married now and he's got the children.

AK: He was married then.

JS: Was he?

AK: He was married then.

JS: Yes.

AK: I wanted him to go on for another three years until he was thirty one. To get a bit higher up, see.

JS: Yes.

AK: But could take a manager's job now, if he wanted to. Urm, but he said "I've got the bab." and he says "Oh gran" he says, "I wouldn't be able to study".

JS: No.

AK: "I wouldn't be able to do it" he says.

JS: No.

AK: He says "I've got what I wanted".

JS: Yes.

AK: He says "I've got what I wanted to get".

JS: Hmm.

AK: Or else I want, I wanted him to go on for another three years until he was thirty, thirty one.

JS: Never mind, he's done very well.

AK: But, erm, he said "I'm satisfied, I've got where I wanted to get".

JS: That's good.

AK: [5 second pause] He wouldn't be able to do it, would he? With the bab, like he said, "With the noise I wouldn't be able to do it. You've got to be so quiet". And well you have, haven't you...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes, yes.

AK: ...you know, to study. You've got to be so quiet.

JS: That's right. How is Keith then, now?

AK: Keith? Er, fifty three.

JS: Yes, 'cause I thought he was quite a bit younger than me.

AK: Hmm?

JS: I thought he was quite a bit younger than me.

AK: He's fifty three. That's right, he's fifty three. I think [laughs].

JS: Yes, I know what you mean. I have to stop and think now.

AK: Yes, I think he's fifty three.

JS: Yes.

AK: He was fifty three last March. I'm pretty sure he was.

JS: Yes. [5 second pause] Wonderful carefree days when we were children. We didn't ever realise how lucky we were.

AK: Yes, and I don't, I haven't seen Wayne since Phyllis died.

JS: No, I've, that's.

AK: I think Wayne's a bit older than Kieth [indistinct].

JS: I saw him briefly at, urm, Loraine's funeral.

AK: Oh well, I didn't go to, I...

JS: [Interrupts] No, you weren't well.

AK: I'd just been home, that was the first day that I come home...

JS: [Interrupts] I remember someone telling me you weren't, you, you, you'd been ill, yes.

AK: I don't know whether it was Plurasy that I'd had. I know I'd just come from Kieth's. I think that was the first day back home. And I said, Evelyn said "Should you come?". I said "I don't think I dare go out". I daren't of gone.

JS: No, no, it was a awfully cold day. I remember that, very cold.

AK: Oh, [indistinct] first day back at home, because I'd been stopping at Keith's. I'm sure whether it was, I think it was the plurasy, I think it was.

JS: Well let's hope you sail through this winter with no problems.

AK: Pardon.

JS: I hope you sail through this winter with no problems.

AK: The doctor laughs. He said, well he says "What you going to have?" I said "Nothing". [Laughs] Every time he comes I says, I says it's his fault. He laughs [laughs].

JS: [laughs]. Yes.

AK: I says "[indistinct] waiting for me".

JS: Ah. So you had a happy marriage?

AK: Oh yes. We had our arguments, everybody does.

JS: Yes.

AK: Anyone says they don't, they're telling lies.

JS: Yes, yes.

AK: They're telling lies if they say they don't.

JS: Yes.

AK: Oh yes, Jock was very easy going. Everybody has arguments.

JS: Yes.

AK: Our biggest argument was me leaving cupboard doors open.

JS: Was it? Oh.

AK: He used to say "For goodness sake kath, shut the cupboard door".

JS: [laughs]

AK: And I would always say "I'll shut them when I'm ready". I say it now!

JS: Yes.

AK: I still do it.

JS: Yes.

AK: I sit there saying "Kath, you've got to shut them youself".

JS: [laughs]

AK: Jock used to follow me round and shut them, and I says "Kath, you've got to shut them yourself".

JS: [laughs] Oh lovely.

AK: Oh yes, I still do it, leaves them open. And knives and forks. When we used to wash up he'd say "How many have been here for dinner?". There'd be a dozen knives and forks.

JS: [laughs]

AK: When I was a cooking, if I coudn't f..., it I couldn't find the one I got another.

JS: Yes.

AK: Are you like that?

JS: Yes.

AK: I, I never seemed to think to use the same one twice, and I still do it.

JS: Yes, yes, it's interesting.

AK: I put the one down, if I can't find it I go straight to the box and get another one out.

JS: Well, it's quicker and easier, isn't it?

AK: He always used to say "How many have been here for dinner?"

JS: Yes.

AK: "They should be [indistinct] family." he used to say.

JS: [laughs] Oh that's lovely.

AK: Oh we've all got our faults, there's nobody perfect.

JS: No, that's certainly true.

AK: Shouldn't be on the Earth if we was.

JS: No, that's very [tape noise].

AK: Do you want another cup of tea?

JS: No, that's lovely thank you. I shall have to make tracks for home, I suppose now and pick up...

AK: [Interrupts] How long will it take you?

JS: About...

AK: [Interrupts] About an hour?

JS: About an hour yes.

AK: Is it right in Bristol?

JS: No, no, I live actually in Gloucestershire, but not Gloucester town, I live right on the border of Gloucester.

AK: Oh I see, yes.

JS: Urm, and it's a place called Wotton Under Edge, which is an old woollen town. It's just on foothills of the Cotswolds, just where the Cotswolds start. And I have a lovely view from the back of the house. We can see the Sugarloaf in Wales on a fine day. It's very nice there, very lucky. [Pause] but, erm, [pause] [tape noise] I'm one of those people who's always busy doing something.

AK: Hmm?

JS: I'm always busy doing something. I'm trying to do this family tree.

AK: I'll try and find that out, but Keith's is [indistinct], er, Keith was tracing the name of the Lammas, where the name of the Lammas came from.

JS: Yes.

AK: That's what Keith's got.

JS: Well I must get in touch with him then and see whether he can give me some information.

AK: And he said something in Scotland and then in, erm, Canada I think he said. But anyway, he's got it. How, how, where he got it from I don't know, I've no idea, but he's got a coat of arms and it's three lambs. Becuase I told Eric, I said "We've got a coat of arms." "I told you." he said.

JS: [laughs]

AK: I said "You know, Eric, we've got a coat of arms." and he said "Well I always told you we had". [laughs]

JS: Yes, Yes.

AK: It, it was quite interesting to read, but he got it framed.

JS: Yes, I must ask him if he can get some new copies.

AK: I don't know where he got it from. Do you know what it, what it's called?

JS: No.

AK: But I'll try and find that thing. I know I haven't destroyed it. I know I haven't destroyed it. I know I sent the one, the original one to Australia, because they was always on about, er, from way back they always wanted to have it to see who they was so I...

JS: [Interrupts] Yes, the Americans and Canadians are very into that, yes.

AK: [indistinct] you haven't come from jail birds [laughs]

JS: [laughs] Yes, that's true.

AK: Ah yes, I sent it out there.

JS: That's wonderful [tape noise].

AK: You know the muth, I'm sure the, the wife it first, first started from was, I sure it was Elizabeth and the other was Thomas Lammas. A lot of children and his [indistinct] wife and we comes from that side.

JS: Yes.

AK: But she's got all the children lined up like that, and then when I wrote and told her as the grandad's name was Jabez Lammas she took it from there. She didn't come down the other side, she come down this, this one side.

JS: Yes, yeah. Well maybe I could do the other side then.

AK: Yes.

JS: We'll have to see.

AK: But it's quite a, quite a big family. Quite a big family.

JS: Well I...

AK: [Interrupts] From them, from them it was, like urm, what we come from.

JS: Well, when you think that, what, Granny Lammas had thirteen children, didn't she?

AK: Yes, yes, oh yes. We had nine, I'm one of, of, I' youngest of nine...

JS: [Interrupts] And your family had nine.

AK: Yes.

JS: And if your father's family was that big and...

AK: [Interrupts] Yes.

JS: ...you know it's. I know when I looked back into the records, I went to college to do it and I looked back in the records and I thought it wouldn't be too difficult to find, like, where my grandparents parents were from, but when I looked back I couldn't because there were seven families on Sidemoor. Of, all called Lammas and they all had about ten or twelve children.

AK: Well, couldn't you get it from marrying Min, Minnie?

JS: Well yes, that's what I need to do but I couldn't, I don't know on that particular record whether I could even find that. I didn't have a lot of time because I was doing it at college...

AK: [Interrupts] I can't think, I can't think what...

JS: [Interrupts] Was it, was it Perry? Was it Minnie Perry, was it? Was her name Perry?

AK: That's it, yes.

JS: That's right, yes.

AK: I can't think what the grandad's name was.

JS: No, I...

AK: [Interrupts] I know he used to talk about his Uncle Tom. He used to talk about...

JS: [Interrupts] Well, the other thing was there were loads of George Lammases.

AK: Yes.

JS: And know, I don't know who it was said to me but his, his first name wasn't George, my grandfather.

AK: Oh I don't, I couldn't tell you.

JS: I've got this vague feeling in my head, but I don't know who told me that. So that's where it, you know became difficult trace him back.

AK: I've only ever known him as George.

JS: No, I only ever knew he was George. So, like you say, I'll have to find Minnie Perry and sort of try and trace it back that way when she married [pause] George Lammas.

AK: But I know there's a lot on, on Sidemoor, the er, market gardener's is on Jock's side.

JS: Yeah.

AK: Like urm, there was the Uncle Harry,...

JS: [Interrupts] Well that's right, I remember my father going up there.

AK: Yes.

JS: And going up there with him.

AK: His cousins was John [?Ron?] Lammas, Bill Lammas, and there's still urm, John [?Ron?] Lammas, his cousin's still got the, a Market, er he used to be a market gardener because we used to have our potatoes off him, but he does the flowers now.

JS: Oh right.

AK: And that's at Popry.

JS: Popry?

AK: Yes.

JS: Gosh.

AK: Mar, he does, he's got all green houses now. The, the government stopped him growing so many potatoes.

JS: Oh right.

AK: He growed some and they fined him.

JS: Really?

AK: Yes, and he never growed any since. We always had our potatoes off him. Ken, Ken Lammas.

JS: Ken Lammas.

JS: [Tape noise] [Indistinct] went to see...

AK: The biggest family are the grandad's family. The biggest family are them.

JS: Yes.

AK: On our side are the biggest family.

JS: Yes. Well I went urm, I was looking for uncle Eric's house last year, and I stopped and asked somebody. I said I was looking for Eric Lammas, so and so. Could they tell me where it was and she said "That's interesting, my name was Lammas before I was married".

AK: Yes.

JS: And it turned out that her grandfather was my grandfather's brother.

AK: Yes, yes, it...

JS: [Interrupts] See, urm...

AK: Your dad he got a big family...

JS [Interrupts] Yes.

AK: There was a big family of them.

JS: I've got her address and I must write to them to see, you know, to make contact with them to see if they've got any information.

AK: There was, I think in Mother's family there was five or six. There was Jabe, Mother, who else, George, [laughs].

JS: Another George, yes.

AK: Sarah Ann, [pause] there's four or five in her family.

JS: Yeah.

AK: George, we used to call him "White Knob", he, you see [sighs] normally we're fair.

JS: Yes.

AK: When Grandad Lammas used to come in and see Mother he used to say, he'd used to come in and say, erm, "Oh, and by the way, we're Anglo-Saxons, that's on the list" and I said, well I said, "We was always told we come from the Anglo-Saxons". Grandad Lammas used to say "Fair hair, blue eyes, true Saxon".

JS: Yes.

AK: And on this, er, this Keith's got we're Anglo-Saxon.

JS: Yes.

AK: Descended from the Anglo-Saxons.

JS: Yes.

AK: What he's got.

JS: Yes.

AK: I couldn't tell you where he got it from, no, where he got it from I've no idea.

JS: Oh, don't worry, I'll phone him and ask him.

AK: Tell him it's what he's got framed.

JS: Right. OK.

AK: I don't know where he got it from nor how he got it, but I know it says on it we're Anglo-Saxons. And I know I turned round and I said "I always told you we was, [indistinct] always told you we was Anglo-Saxons. Grandad Lammas always said we was.

JS: Yeah, and yet he, er, he was dark, wasn't he?

AK: Yes, we always, there's one or two in our family kept fair.

JS: Yes.

AK: Our Rena kept fair, and my, one sister kept fair, she kept fair. And I think our Sid's still fair.

JS: Yeah.

AK: But we were all [?]gold[?] haired...

JS: [Interrupts] But Uncle Jack was red wasn't he? He had red hair. Uncle Jock had red hair.

AK: Jock was red.

JS: My dad was red, Aunty Olive was red.

AK: Yes, our Jock's was a lovely colour. [Indistinct]...

JS: [Interrupts] And then all the others were black, weren't they?

AK: [indistinct] ... our Loraine's was fair, was the same colour as Jock's.

JS: Yes. That sort of dark red, yes, yes. [Pause] That's funny because may father's had gone white when he was in his forties.

AK: Yes.

JS: I thought I would go white in my forties, but I didn't.

AK: Haven't you got it, is yours still the same?

JS: No, it's, it's half and half now, it's pepper and salt, but I went darker.

AK: It's a lovely gold though, really.

JS: Yeah, I went darker when I was forty. My hair went darker, not lighter. Funny, and yet my father went white.

AK: I went, I went fair [indistinct] I went.

JS: Yes, it's funny, isn't it? [5 second pause] Well, I'd better go and wend my way.

End of Interview.